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Talk:Super Saiyan Second grade
ASCENDED SUPER SAIYAN Vegeta and Trunks don't use this form during the Cell Game and versus Borjack, they are just Super Saiyan. Ascended Super Saiyan is used versus Semi-Perfect Cell/Perfect Cell from Vegeta and Trunks and in the OAV Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan. That's true (well, except for maybe for the Vegeta vs. Bojack battle, since his saiyan armor stretches to accomidate a new form.), I mean, in "Broly, the Legendary Super Saiyan", Trunks obviously went Ascended Super Saiyan (as he was the only one out of the Super Saiyans that fought Broly in Round 1 that had his jacket torn apart as he transformed, and he didn't tear apart his jacket when he transformed into an SSJ both during the battle with Tien and his fight against Kogu.) Merging of ASSj and USSj I would much rather have the Ultra and Ascended Super Saiyan articles merged into one. '-- bulletproof' 08:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC) :Why? Both are two completely different transformations, unlike the SSj and FPSSj which both are the same. --[[User:Dranzer Neos|'N'e'o's']] 10:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC) ::Exactly but the Daizenshuu seems to describe both ''ichi-dankai no henshin or "transformations of the first stage" as being one and the same, just varying levels of the same exact thing. '''-- bulletproof 04:34, 17 December 2008 (UTC) :::The Daizenshuu is right. They're both simple variants of the first stage, not actual transformations. What I meant in my previous reply was the fact they're completely different from themselves; the 2nd Grade is not the same as the 3rd Grade. They do not relate to each other but they both relate to Super Saiyan, i.e. both are offshoots of the original Super Saiyan. Unlike Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 which are completely new transformations by themselves, who don't relate to either eachother or Super Saiyan. --[[User:Dranzer Neos|'N'e'o's']] 10:18, 17 December 2008 (UTC) ::::I don't think you understand. It states that they aren't different from ''themselves at all. They are indeed a variation of Super Saiyan, but are not necessarily a variation of each other. They are one and the same and only differentiated by the names Sūpā Saiya-jin dai ni-dankai and Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai san-dankai ('''Super Saiyan 1 Stage 2 and Super Saiyan 1 Stage 3) to catalogue the only change between the two, the further increment of muscle mass to the point where agility is lost.'-- bulletproof' 03:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :::::Oh yeah. I checked. It does say that: "just varying levels of the same exact thing." Hmm... I guess you're right. It should be merged, under the heading 'Super Saiyan Variants' or something like that. --[[User:Dranzer Neos|'N'e'o's']] 12:34, 18 December 2008 (UTC) ::::::To me the most plausible location to merge these articles should be Super Saiyan, since the forms are just further advanced versions of this technique. Even Full-Power Super Saiyan could be merged here, as well. Storm 16:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :::::::Eh?! Are there two Storms out there? Because the first one seemed to have remained neutral on my idea of merging SSj and FPSSj. This one's positive. Chemistry, anyone? :::::::Anyways, I don't think A/USSj should be merged with SSj. Full-Power/Mastered Super Saiyan ''is not even an actual transformation; it's simply an advancement of an earlier form. While the Ultra Super Saiyan levels are as Goku puts it in the original Japanese dialogue, '"ichi-dankai no henshin" ("transformations of the first stage").'' :::::::So, I think that FPSSJ and SSj should be merged into one article: Super Saiyan, while ASSj and USSj should be under a different article called Stages of Super Saiyan, or something of the sort. --[[User:Dranzer Neos|'N'e'o's']] 17:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC) ::::::::Well I was neutral on the topic, but if a merge is actually going to happen then I figure it wouldn't hurt to give my opinion. Wouldn't it be easier to just have a "Stages of Super Saiyan" section in the Super Saiyan article, detailing the different sub-stages? I've made a quick layout of what I mean at the wiki's Sandbox so it can be seen in action. Storm 18:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :::::::::Yeah, I agree, The article seems more fit, and why not make ASS,USS and FPSS etc redirecting to the part in the article that is FPSS etc.-- 18:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC) ::::::::::Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. It's just a suggestion, but seeing practically applied, I think it could be an appropriate solution. Storm 20:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC) :::::::::::I agree with Sk. And I made a few headline changes at the Sandbox. I think it looks better that way and is a bit more readable. Anyone agrees? --[[User:Dranzer Neos|'Ne'o's']] 20:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC) I don't much care whether the article's are merged or not, but I'm not sure whether bulletproof meant this as a serious suggestion or not. (His first post that appears on this page is sort of taken out of context, as it was a response to a completely different conversation on Talk:Full-Power Super Saiyan.) Anyway, if it's what everybody wants that's fine, I just wanted to mention that, as I got mixed signals from the whole thing. -- 07:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC) :The stages as they stand disambiguated right now in separate articles doesn't bother me (like I said on the FPSS talk page, anyone who sees the terms and has further questions can just consult the articles, where their leads pretty much sum it up). I just think that if the community is actually going to consider a move/merge, I'd like to throw in my two cents. The merged sandbox version doesn't look half bad though, but if consensus is at all satisfied with keeping the advanced SS state articles disambiguated, it won't weigh on my conscience. Storm 08:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC) ::Okay. This is getting too confusing. I'm throwing in the white towel. BTW, weren't these articles all merged together during the start of the Wikia as well? --[[User:Dranzer Neos|'Ne'o's']] 08:24, 19 December 2008 (UTC) :::Yeah, the very first versions of the article were taken directly from Wikipedia, and detailed the entire Super Saiyan mythos (FSS, SS, ASS, USS, FPSS, SS2, SS3, SS4) excluding Golden Great Apes. Then sometime after everything got disambiguated. Storm 08:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC) So what is to done to the articles 08:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC) :I have no idea. In the meantime I've reworked the articles for Super Saiyan, its Ascended and Ultra stages, and the full-power state to reflect the rewrites in the sandbox version. Now it really just depends if consensus prefers the four be merged. Storm 09:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC) ::What I wanted to propose was to rename the two articles to their correctly translated names. Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan are nothing more than fan terms. '-- bulletproof 09:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC) :::So is the heading for 'that part' going to be like Super Saiyan 1 Stage 2 etc, and Ascended Super Saiyan etc. just redirecting to it ,and the fist line containing "also known as Ascended Super Saiyan".Anyway I still think the The article is better -- 17:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC) false super saiyan 2 would'nt this be a false super saiyan 2.because in the anime trunks states "he did it right!he increased his strength without losing speed!" so that means that this a false transformation isnt it?another hint is that trunks says before that "i just jumped in to early!i just kept plowing forward like a stupid child".i think there are alot of hints here. Actually Ascended Super Saiyan is the samething as SSJ2 The article about Ascended Super Saiyan is wrong. I even made a video about this on youtube. Everybody will see what I mean when watched it... Link of the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh_jtWEq2MY&fmt=18 :No the article is correct. Super Saiyan 2 is a much more powerful transformation, this must be a mistake in the dubbing 13:34, April 5, 2010 (UTC) No there is no mistake in the dubbing cause I watched the both episodes in the ocean dubbed version also which is owned and licensed by Funimation Entertainment. everyone knows there is a HUGE difference between ascended super saiyan and super saiyan 2. there is really no reason for dis dispute. TheDarkPrinceReturns! 20:34, April 5, 2010 (UTC) : It is most certainly a dubbing mistake. The japanese version he says the line slightly differently, and in japanese that takes longer. So to make up the time, they put in the second part of it which calls it an assended super saiyan as well. Saying that this is true and not a mistake is just like saying that Bardock created the Power Ball like Vegeta mistakenly said he did in the Ocean dub. 20:38, April 5, 2010 (UTC) The Super Saiyan 2 and Ascended Super Saiyan forms are not the same. There are obvious differences: *SSJ2 has the electrical aura while ASSJ has a blazing aura. *SSJ2 is much more powerful than ASSJ, seeing as the SSJ2 form attained by Gohan easily dominated Perfect Cell, who was more powerful than the ASSJ form used by Vegeta. *ASSJ has a more heavy increase in muscle mass than SSJ2's muscle mass. Along with these differences, I agree there is a dubbing mistake in English as Goku said "Ascended Super Saiyan" when he really meant the Super Saiyan 2 form. I haven't really watched the series in Japanese because I like it better in English, so I can't be sure about the dubbing of Goku's mentionings of the Ascended Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms in Japanese. : I'd also like to point out that one of the "legitamizing" reasons given in that video is "According to Goku (Who is the first super saiyan)". First - Goku is not the first Super Saiyan, though he is the first SEEN. Second - When did Goku ever know anything about how Saiyans worked at all? He only knew about Super Saiyans because Vegeta kept talking about them and wouldn't have figured out that there were actual transformations beyond it without the help of Future Trunks, Vegeta, and Gohan. So Goku is a terrible resource for information on Saiyans. 21:29, April 5, 2010 (UTC) Haha that's so true xD 22:14, April 5, 2010 (UTC) Well must say that in the anime trunks says "He is ascended!" looking at vegeta while he powers up against cell. But he didn't say "he became an Ascended Super Saiyan" he just said that he is ascended. Also when first goku went beyond the Super Saiyan Gohan said " You ascended to the next level" he also didn't mention clearly that he became an Ascended Super Saiyan. My Believes they are Ultra Super Saiyans but not Ascended Super Saiyans... Also While in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku shows the levels beyond the Super Saiyan to Gohan. He Ascends to Ultra Super Saiyan like Trunks did and then tells Gohan that he cannot beat cell in that form. He only pushes his limits a little further and goes to a point which is weaker and faster form of Ultra Super Saiyan (Which you guys call Ascended Super Saiyan) Vegeta gone to that very same point like Goku did and couldn't beat Cell. Trunks had his chance and he pushed himself further to a point which is called as Ultra Super Saiyan that gave him disadvantage fighting cell because of his muscles. So Vegeta and Goku pushed themselves to a point that they can increase their power and keep their speed. I would call this Descended Ultra Super Saiyan. As Goku Says in the anime, Ascended Super Saiyan is the samething as Super Saiyan 2. Also Goku maybe a terrible resource about Saiyans. But this thing is not about how Saiyans lived etc. He was the first seen super saiyan and he was the first one to achive this state. Vegeta kept talking about Saiyans yes but he couldn't even imagine if there was level beyond the Super Saiyan 2 and he surprised and cried like a baby when Goku turned into a Super Saiyan 3. Goku even pushed himself to SSJ4. His trainings on his Super Saiyan form are far more intense than other dragonball characters (He achive his Super Saiyan 3 form in these intense trainings in the other world) Vegeta realized how intense Goku trained when he killed Yakon (Babidi's servent fighter) So according to the anime Goku has the best knowlegde about Super Saiyans... SSJ2 is much more powerful than ASSJ, seeing as the SSJ2 form attained by Gohan easily dominated Perfect Cell, who was more powerful than the ASSJ form used by Vegeta. While technically correct, I should note that Vegeta himself said that the ASSj transformation triples the power of a Super Saiyan, which would mean that, technically, ASSj is stronger than SSj2 (As SSj2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan, and ASSj is approximately three times that of a Super Saiyan.). Weedle McHairybug 03:01, April 7, 2010 (UTC) : I'm sorry, but I don't recall it ever being said that SS2 doubled the power of a Super Saiyan. Vegeta did in fact say that his power was tri-fold as an ASS (I can't believe I haven't actually made that pun before...), but that didn't necessarily mean overall power. His muscles bulged a lot more than SS2, so it's possible that he was stronger, but with FAR less Ki power and control. Just like when Goku hit Recoome with his elbow, Vegeta notices not how hard the hit was, but the Ki that was put into it that really made it more powerful. 03:17, April 7, 2010 (UTC) ::The part about SSj2 being twice the strength of a Super Saiyan was stated in the Super Exciting Guide. The same guide also explained that Super Saiyan 3 was four times that of a Super Saiyan 2, and by extension, eight times the strength of a Super Saiyan. Weedle McHairybug 03:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC) Which means SSJ2 and ASSJ are the samething... :Which part of that says that they are the same thing? 19:57, April 7, 2010 (UTC) I guess you didin't even bother to read the topic man... :Clearly I did. You misunderstood me. You said that SSJ2 and ASSJ are the same thing, I then said which part of any of this discussion said that any of us agreed with you that they are the same thing, or where did any of us state that it was the same thing. The fact of the matter is, it was a dub mistake. All of us are in agreement, except from you. We are also in agreement that ASSJ increases overall strength and is stronger than a SSJ2, however, Super Saiyan 2 is more powerful (combination of strength and speed) also having a far increased Ki power also. Incase you "didn't read the topic" then that's is what we have been discussing 13:32, April 8, 2010 (UTC) First of all i created this topic. I didn't say u all agreed on this, i told my opinion and i don't know why u took it so personally. : Okay, I think the discussion has gotten a little out of hand. The point of this section, as the post above this suggests, was to point out places where it was stated in the FUNimation dub that ASSJ was the same as SSJ2. However, the manga, official statements by Toriyama, and things like the Super Exciting Guide state that there is a difference between the two. ASSJ may have more strength, but not as much overall power because it doesn't have as much Ki, and a lot less speed. If that doesn't clear up the point, then please present another theory or discussion point. Let's not devolve into arguing though. 18:32, April 8, 2010 (UTC) You didn't state your opinion as you said that SSJ2 and ASSJ are the same thing, you didn't say I think that.... Secondly, the only reason I took it personally was because you said that I hadn't bothered to read the topic, when really you misunderstood me. That's all I have to say, and hope there is no bad feeling's between us, as when I posted I certainly never meant to create an argument or conflict, and if my posts came across as unfriendly, then I apologise, it was not intended 22:16, April 8, 2010 (UTC) Another thing to remember in all this is that while we have official sources and documentation to cite, characters like Goku do not. He is basically naming these levels on the go as he and the gang attain them, and could easily misspeak, get confused, or just decide to call a form by another name for any reason. The important thing is for us to be consistent with our own nomenclature, which the site currently is. 22:22, April 8, 2010 (UTC) they are the same thing in the anime but there diffrent in the comic. :They are not the same thing in the anime, if you are unclear, then read the rest of this discussion, the majority of us agree that it is a mistake in the dubbing. Thanks 16:56, May 2, 2010 (UTC) Guys. I cannot believe what I'm reading. How can you even suppose that Super Saiyan 2nd Grade can be as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan 2? Just because some guide said that Super Saiyan 2 is 2x as strong as Super Saiyan 1 doesn't mean nor prove anything. Even if that statement was valid, it still doesn't mean that SS grade 2 is any stronger than SS2, as SS2 was first attained by a Full-Power Super Saiyan with a power output similar to that of an Ultra Saiyan (it's called Full-Power for a reason, eh?). Still, much evidence suggests that SS2 is much, much more than twice as strong as Full-Power Super Saiyan, therefore even comparing it to the first branch stage of SS1 is silly.Xfing 15:15, December 30, 2010 (UTC) Super Saiyan Levels I dont see why they can't all be listed under there individual levels like: Base SuperSaiyan AscendedSuperSaiyan UltraSuperSaiyan (All 3 of the above different stages of the first level of Super Saiyans) SuperSaiyan 2 SuperSaiyan 3 SuperSaiyan 4 As for the whole Ascended Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 being the same thing, i always thought that Super Saiyan 2 was a superior transformation. When Gohan fought Cell as a Super Saiyan 1 he was originally a Super Saiyan but then powered up to an Ascended Super Saiyan to fight cell. After android 16 was destroyed he unleashed his hidden powers and transformed to the level of Super Saiyan 2. As the Ascended and Ultra Super Saiyan stages are just improved forms of the first stage it isn't necessary for them to be achieved before becoming a Super Saiyan 2, like where Goku shows Buu the 3 levels of Super Saiyans. :Gohan never used the Ascended Super Saiyan form during the cell fight. Also Super Saiyan 2 is a much more powerful transformation. And they didn't know about the different forms, they just happened to transform into them 19:58, June 30, 2010 (UTC)